We're Not Marketers

“I’m Just A Normal PMM Trying To Survive” (with David Lim)

Thu, 29 Jan 2026 14:00:00 +0000

Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't have a clue what you do, why knowing your customer's quarterly priorities is a superpower, and what happens when you fight a C-suite exec on product strategy (spoiler: sometimes you get fired). If you've ever been asked to "make that deck pretty," this one's for you.

More From This Episode

The brutal truth: What happens when you don't earn internal respect as a PMM
Why sales teams don't talk to product teams (and how PMMs become the bridge)
The one customer question David asks that unlocks everything: "What are your quarterly priorities?"
David got fired for fighting a founder on product strategy—here's what he learned
Why most founders have zero idea what PMMs actually do (and think you're just a lead gen machine)
The "gut feeling" trap: When executives ignore your research and launch anyway
How to stop rolling your eyes when leadership makes dumb decisions (David admits he's not good at this)
Why working under the product org might actually be better for PMMs
The ultimate PMM flex: Knowing your customer better than anyone in the company
Are PMMs actually marketers, or just the people who make sales decks look pretty?

Time Stamps
00:00 Introduction and Season 5 Kickoff

00:59 Introducing Guest: David Lim (PMM at BVO)

02:36 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 How PMMs Earn Respect (Or Get Stuck in the Black Hole)

07:00 What Sets PMMs Apart: Cross-Functional Collaboration

09:45 The Research That Changed Everything (Working Under Product Org)

13:00 Advocating for PMM: Educating Teams on What You Actually Do

16:00 The Metrics Problem: What Should PMMs Own?

20:00 Working with Customer Success Teams (QBRs and Product Feedback)

23:00 When You Know the Customer Better Than Anyone Else

26:00 Understanding Quarterly Priorities (The Detail Most PMMs Miss)

29:00 Customer Advisory Boards and Sales Advisory Boards

33:00 The Struggle: When Executives Ignore Your Research

35:00 David's Story: Getting Fired for Fighting Product Strategy

38:00 Gab's Story: When a Writer Called the Product "Shit"

40:00 Rolling with the Punches (And Why It's Hard)

42:00 In-House vs. Agency PMM: The Respect Difference

45:00 Post-Launch Research: The Key to Proving You Were Right

47:00 The Founder Talk: Setting Clear Expectations

49:00 Understanding the Customer's Buying Process

50:00 Wrap-Up and Where to Find David

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The Anti-ICP Strategy: How To Use Your Website to Fire Bad Prospects w/ BX Studio

Thu, 15 Jan 2026 14:00:00 +0000

Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong.

Featuring from BX Studio...
Jacob Sussman, CEO

Nikiya Griffith, Director of Organic Growth

Grace Arrese, Partnerships Associate

More from this episode

Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steak
The real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy)
What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don't
The "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write forever
Why tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weight
The CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually)
How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketers
The Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a week
Why your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICP
The shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think)

Time Stamps

00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in

01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion

02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs

03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website?

03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It

04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key

05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion

07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems

08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution

11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO

13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach

16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy

18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion

20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster

22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging?

26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem

29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy

31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs

33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy

35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence

38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter

41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem

45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier

48:00 Closing Thoughts and Farewell

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Strategy over fluffy jargon w/ Crystal Crouch

Thu, 08 Jan 2026 14:00:00 +0000

Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how being hyper-organized means her 9-year-old has never eaten a frozen chicken nugget.

If you've ever wondered whether to charge hourly or by project, or why your messaging doc is just an expensive PDF no one reads, this episode will either inspire you to level up or quit entirely. Either way, you win.

More from this episode...

Product marketers are demand translators, not demand creators (and why that matters)
The Oscar Mayer Wienermobile taught Crystal crisis management at 19
Why product management is 10x harder than PMM (Crystal said it, not us)
90% of company data is dirty - and that's being generous
The one question that determines if you should take a consulting client
Why Crystal's kids live by the Pomodoro method (and only have one TV)
How to use silence to negotiate like a pro (hint: treat yourself like a product)
The real reason your messaging docs are expensive paperweights
Why you should NEVER offer free consulting work (but acts of service are different)
Crystal's secret: "Happiness is a choice" - even when clients are a nightmare

Show Notes
00:59 Introducing Crystal Crouch: The PMM Who Changed Zach's Life

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? The Demand Translation Theory

05:00 Why Product Management is 10x Harder Than PMM

08:00 The Real Definition of GTM (Spoiler: You're Probably Wrong)

12:00 Crystal's Journey to Consulting: From Church to Clients

15:30 Three Lessons for Consultant Success

17:00 The Truth About Free Work and Acts of Service

19:00 How Crystal Balances It All: Pomodoro Method & One TV

23:00 Living by the Calendar: The Secret to Work-Life Balance

26:00 Negotiation Masterclass: Treat Yourself Like Product Pricing

29:00 Why 90% of Company Data is Garbage

31:00 The ROI Question: How to Handle It Like a Pro

33:00 Automatic Client Red Flags

36:00 Fixing Broken Data Without Doing It Yourself

40:00 Building Confidence: Stop Competing With Others

44:00 The Power of Kindness in Business

47:00 Why Every PMM Needs Sales Training

48:50 Happiness is a Choice: Crystal's Final Wisdom

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No salary is worth your soul with Hattie the PMM

Thu, 18 Dec 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth.

More from this convo...

From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work
Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls
The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll"
How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job
Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work
The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke
Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoice
The strategic visibility system that changes everything
Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming
How to extract value from companies that don't value you

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy

03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders

04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act

05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days

06:00 Corporate America Reality Check

07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying

08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers

09:00 The Crying on Calls Era

11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist

13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon

15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed

17:00 The Strategic Visibility System

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Career Advice

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 Personal Branding Strategy

27:00 AI Impact on PMM

29:00 The Newsletter Game

31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks

33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More

35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You

37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time

39:00 The April Dunford Model

41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps

43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy

45:00 Deep Coaching Approach

47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough

49:00 The Workout Analogy

50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs

51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology

52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge

53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattie

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Why Product Marketing only lives (and dies) in B2B tech with Garrett Jestice

Thu, 11 Dec 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.

More from this convo...

Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) •
The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn •
How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant •
Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem •
The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing •
How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance •
The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise •
The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) •
Why more ads won't fix your broken positioning

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest

01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition

03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills

04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers

04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives

05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling

06:00 The Minneapolis Connection

07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros"

09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing

11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide

13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM

15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders

17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion

27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs

29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance

31:00 SEO in the AI Age

33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS

35:00 Founding Prelude Agency

37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus

39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM

41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It

43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue)

45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue

47:00 Small Wins Strategy

49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix

50:00 Channels vs. Foundations

51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally

52:00 Closing & Where to Find Garrett

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Are you the Sales B*tch or the trusted PMM? w/ Drew Giovannoli

Thu, 04 Dec 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar?

Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis.

In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads.

More on what we cover...

• Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys"

• The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it)

• How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency

• Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead)

• The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses

• Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems

• Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second

• The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients

• How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant

• The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship

• Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly)

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How curiosity didn't kill the cat w/ Amanda Groves

Thu, 20 Nov 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention.

Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.

What to gather in this convo:
• How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel)

• Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges"

• The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley

• What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership

• Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader

• The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers

• How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging

• Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there)

• The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams

• What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see

• The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everything

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey

01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory

04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM

05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads

06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy

07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy

09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling

11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path

13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM

15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"

17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building

19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness

21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets

23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received

26:00 Budget Allocation Debates

28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem

30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion

32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends

34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline

37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise

39:00Disagree and Commit Principle

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Being human is your coolest feature w/ Nick Power

Thu, 13 Nov 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats any marketing framework. We talk anti-billionaire content, why brevity is the ultimate flex in marketing, and how the entire tech industry turned marketing into a commodity.

Warning: This episode might make you quit your job or completely rethink your career—either way, you're welcome.

What we cover:
• Why Nick Power thinks 90% of marketers aren't actually marketing anymore

• The shocking reason a LinkedIn influencer would delete his entire digital presence

• How to fit an entire strategy into ONE SENTENCE (seriously)

• Why your positioning docs are expensive PDFs nobody reads

• The anti-billionaire marketing philosophy that's actually about mental health

• What happens when you've never worked with a product marketer (spoiler: you survive)

• The grind culture lie that's killing your creativity

• Why running 5 miles beats any marketing framework • How to give readers "the gift of surprise" in every post

• The real reason marketing became a commodity in tech

Timestamps

01:00 Hot Guest Introduction & Lower Case Legend

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:22 Nick's Controversial Take: "Very Few Marketers Are Marketers"

03:00 The System Problem: Executors vs. Strategists

04:00 Marketing as a Commoditized Craft

05:00 Nick's Background: CPG to B2B Tech

06:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins: Digital Presence vs. Family

07:00 The Mixed Bag of Online Attention

08:30 Zoom Calls vs. Person Captivity

10:00 Content Strategy: Wake Up and Write

11:30 LinkedIn Trolling & Negative Engagement

13:00 Quitting Social Media Discussion

15:00 The State of Marketing Salaries

17:30 Marketing Budget Allocation Debate

19:00 Personal Branding vs. Company Branding

21:00 The Death of Blogging

23:00 Keyword Strategy & SEO Reality Check

25:00 Marketing Advice You'd Give Your Younger Self

27:00 Worst Marketing Experience Stories

29:00 Firing Yourself from Marketing

31:00 Career Identity Crisis Discussion

33:00 Breaking Down Nick's Content Strategy

35:00 The Art of Brevity: One-Sentence Philosophy

36:00 Anti-Billionaire Content Explained

37:00 Late-Stage Capitalism & Grind Culture Critique

38:00 Coping Mechanisms: Running, Music, Kids

39:00 From Surf to Run: Finding Flow State

40:00 Mental Health in Marketing

41:00 Closing & Noun Project Shoutout

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Measure important stuff or die trying w/ Pranav Piyush

Thu, 06 Nov 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise?

Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:

The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectiveness
The three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)
Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketer
The hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategies
Why measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of time
The incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROI
Activity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matter

If you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction and Host Intros

00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush

00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights

01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures

02:40 Origins of the Podcast

03:37 The Role of Product Marketers

07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing

17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing

24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging

24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging

25:04 The Role of Customer Research

30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?

34:29 Creative Work and Measurement

37:31 The Importance of Incrementality

43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?

47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast Promotion

SNOW NOTES:

Pranav's LinkedIn

Paramark

Elena Verna

Statistical significance

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Why B2B events sucks for PMMs? (And why we’re starting our own)

Thu, 30 Oct 2025 13:00:00 +0000

Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to.

Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring.

Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty.

→ Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA
→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)

→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity

→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less

→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in years

If you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.

Timestamped

00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers
02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event
04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them)
08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive
12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit
15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process
18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs
22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work
26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events
29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive
32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything
35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory
38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails)
42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and Real

SHOW NOTES:
Courage Is Calling" by Ryan Holiday

Highline Conference

Drive Conference

We're Not Marketers Event Waitlist

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Klue (battlecards) don't close deals, buying champions do

Thu, 26 Jun 2025 13:00:00 +0000

AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.

What to expect while listening...

Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)
The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit deals
Eric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existed
Gab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speed
Why competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinking
The four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)
How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationships
Why CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)
The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X's
Zach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertise

If you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.

Timestamps

02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel

07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust

13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs

18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement

24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story

31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals

36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals

40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind

44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking

47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next Season

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Become a Mini-CEO: Inside the PMM Consultant’s Playbook w/ Alex Virden

Thu, 12 Jun 2025 12:50:00 +0000

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.

In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.

She also share knowledge on:

The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMs
Why hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)
How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategy
Tactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)
How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagers
Practical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance work

If you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen.

Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡

Timestamps:

02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant

09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing

16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements

24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings

26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control

27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas

29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing

30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling

32:17 The Role of External Validation

34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing

38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing

43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying Connected

Show Notes:
Alex’s LinkedIn

Virdical Website

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There is no line between brand and product marketing w/ Jon Itkin

Thu, 05 Jun 2025 12:50:00 +0000

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.

Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:

The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and Cost
The danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)
Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded markets
How convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd think
How category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)

Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀

Timestamps:

00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin

01:26 The Role of Product Marketers

04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing

07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing

18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing

26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage

26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B

27:15 Positioning and Buying Process

28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service

30:28 Understanding the Four Cs

32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis

41:12 Branding and Credibility

45:51 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Show Notes:

Jon’s LinkedIn

In the Kitchen

Jon 4 C framework on Miro

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PMMs, MarTech, and making AI actually useful w/ Phil Gamache

Thu, 29 May 2025 12:50:00 +0000

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft.

From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.

The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:

Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix it
The AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)
“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you do
Phil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analyst
The PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarity

This one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable

01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache

01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing

09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops

12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing

24:30 The Current State of AI

25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research

29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews

31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts

40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data

43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E

45:30 Conclusion and Farewell

Show Notes:

Phil’s LinkedIn

Humans of Martech Podcast

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Why In-House PMMs Without Fractional Experience Are Missing Out?

Thu, 15 May 2025 13:00:00 +0000

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.

Here's what to expect when listening...

The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bosses
Why fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peers
The surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)
How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid off
Why hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house job
The brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"
When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)
The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction and Host Banter
01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?
02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work
03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships
05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture
07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)
08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services
09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work
10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House
12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy
14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional
15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To
18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work
21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship
22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin
23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health Risks

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"Create Once, Dominate Forever: Why 2025 Content Decisions Determine Your 2030 Success w/ Ross Simmonds

Thu, 08 May 2025 13:00:00 +0000

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less.

Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.

Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)
The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)
Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for them
How SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)
The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030
Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)
How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)
The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong job
How to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)

If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.

Show Notes

00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds

03:09 The Evolution of Marketing

05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer

10:03 Distribution First Mindset

14:09 SEO and Product Marketing

18:21 Investing in Content and SEO

24:11 Effective Content Distribution

31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges

31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution

32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning

34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI

36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects

45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt

49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation

52:14 Final Thoughts and Future Plans

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Why marketing research Is more than just 'talking to customers' w/ Ryan Paul Gibson

Thu, 01 May 2025 12:50:00 +0000

Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong?

In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all.

From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way.

Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:

Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisions
The 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)
How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)
Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battles
The fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understand
How Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)

If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.

Timestamps:

00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson

01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing

04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing

10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing

14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews

23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics

30:24 Understanding Research Design

30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement

36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research

36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis

38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights

41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI

49:51 Effective Customer Conversations

57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Show Notes:

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When Copy Gets Real: Why Getting Too Creative Actually Kills Conversion

Thu, 24 Apr 2025 13:00:00 +0000

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words.

We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.

What you get when you listen

Why product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)
The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound robotic
The hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlook
How AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)
Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)
The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subreddit
Why "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single time
The counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging brief
The three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing

03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges

08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting

10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research

11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting

18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs

23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources

26:16 Conclusion and Sign-Off

Why being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever before

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Product marketers, paid landing pages are broken, w/ Tas Bober

Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:50:00 +0000

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.

This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.

We're covering:

Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)
How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on Reddit
The simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)
How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problems
The contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate
"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguided
How to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your network

In this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content.

She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults.

Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.

Timestamps:

02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show
07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages
09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages
12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains
14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)
17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages
22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert
27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires
31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)
37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates
45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers
48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs
54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography
57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business
01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net Worth

Show Notes:

Tas LinkedIn

Her B2B website and landing page resource hub

Tas Website

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The bottom of funnel (BOFU) gap: Why content marketers need product marketers w/ Lashay Lewis

Thu, 10 Apr 2025 12:50:00 +0000

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing.

Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversions
The reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content
"Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 months
Why most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silos
The uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel content

Listen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.

Timespan:

02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs

06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams

09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?

12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert

14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content

19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise

24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting

28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting

31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset

36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"

40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find Her

Show Notes:

Lashay on LinkedIn

Rob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing Content

Exit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay Lewis

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Winning at Win-Loss: Why real research beats sales rep excuses w/ Ryan Sorley

Thu, 03 Apr 2025 12:50:00 +0000

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."

In this episode, we're covering:

How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to pay
The "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growth
Why most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphs
The Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BS
Why writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneurs
How Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeople

Check out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too!

Timestamps:

01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research

06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research

10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis

12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story

17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey

19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him

21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity

23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship

27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?

30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships

34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors

39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting

42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)

44:30 Closing Remarks and Farewell

Show Notes:

Ryan's LinkedIn

Blindspots on Amazon

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Why most message testing is complete BS (and how to fix it)

Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:50:00 +0000

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:

Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)

Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teams
The one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your results
The critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers miss
How to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediately

If you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.

Timestamps

01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?

02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach

04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems

05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals

06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation

09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing

12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making

16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging

19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness

22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon

27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing

29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable

34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing

35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework

38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)

41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences

44:35 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways

Show notes:

Victoria Rudi's Messaging Frameworks
Message Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.

Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example

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Doing more with less as a solo PMM w/ Michele Nieberding

Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:45:00 +0000

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!

The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about:

✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it
✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️
✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer
✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important
✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?
✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research
✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?
✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role
✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date

🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!

Timespan:

00:59 Introducing the Guest

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights

09:45 AI in Product Marketing

20:45 Working with Sales Teams

25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis

26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits

28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification

29:01 The Buffet Analogy

33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept

36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment

42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing

48:04 Closing Remarks and Farewell

Shownotes:

Follow Michelle on LinkedIn

Gong.io (for sales call analysis)

Perplexity AI (for deep research)

Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)

Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator)

BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency)

Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap

AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation)

Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool)

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From SDR to CMO: Why the best sellers are marketers w/ Kyle Coleman

Thu, 13 Mar 2025 12:30:00 +0000

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.

Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.

✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).

✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.

✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?

✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.

✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.

✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).

✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.

✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.

If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

00:16 Meet the Hosts

00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman

01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective

05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO

07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue

12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition

15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs

19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy

21:28 AI in Sales Enablement

22:40 Impact Over Quantity

23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise

25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer

30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function

34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates

39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI

41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth Tips

Show Notes:

Kyle's LinkedIn Profile

Copy.ai

Christopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"

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How to deliver outcome-based metrics as a PMM orchestrator w/ Chanel Chambers

Thu, 06 Mar 2025 13:50:00 +0000

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:

🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix

🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers

🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master

🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common

🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence

🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)

🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter

🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there

🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personas

Listen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions

00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business

09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing

16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics

18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders

23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas

24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports

25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM

26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM

34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts

39:47 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Show Notes:

Chanel LinkedIn

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RECAP - How to build influence as a PMM in 2025

Thu, 20 Feb 2025 13:50:00 +0000

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value.

Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.

Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.
The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.
Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).
Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”
How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.

This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.

Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks!

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Why your messaging briefs get thrown in the trash w/ Devin Reed

Thu, 30 Jan 2025 13:50:00 +0000

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise?

In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes

on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.

If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams

→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content

→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign

→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling

→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing

→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands

→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception

→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers say

Listen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome

02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed

04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing

06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing

14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies

23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing

26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective

26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content

28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration

28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas

29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content

29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging

31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language

34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes

36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting

43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution

48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects

Show Notes:

The Reeder Website

Reed between the lines podcast

Devin’s LinkedIn

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Building We're Not Marketers 💀 The Podcast Origin Story

Thu, 23 Jan 2025 13:50:00 +0000

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms.

Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision.

How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.
How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.
The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.
Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.
Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.

Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Episode Context

01:32 Meet the Hosts

01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast

02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show

04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing

06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View

09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas

12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers

21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing

24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective

25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment

26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement

26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities

30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression

35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work

40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025

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Bet on Yourself: Lessons from Going Fractional as a PMM

Thu, 09 Jan 2025 14:00:00 +0000

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:

The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.
Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.
How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.
Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.

From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.

Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.

🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route

01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges

02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits

04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset

09:36 Sales and Client Management

17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability

30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence

31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support

33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life

34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth

39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences

43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations

47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success

51:50 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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Simplifying stories and learning in Product Marketing w/ Peter Kortvel

Thu, 19 Dec 2024 14:00:00 +0000

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job.

Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).

Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.

He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!).

In this episode, we’re covering:

The importance of understanding your target audience
Why research can help you communicate your product value
The difference between storytelling and the format
Challenges of PMMs and if they are marketers
Common startup mistakes in messaging
The best time to drink beer

So grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡

Timespan:

00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers

00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel

01:55 Diving into Product Marketing

09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing

14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing

23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content

24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing

26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem

28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication

31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing

36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling

46:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Peter’s LinkedIn

Product Marketing Newsletter

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3 different ways of making your mark as a founding PMM? (especially when everything is against you)

Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.

That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)

This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketing

In this special episode, we’re covering:

The significance of clear messaging
AI's potential for PMMs
The inherent identity crisis within our field
Strategies for establishing effective product marketing
The necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan.

This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)

Timestamps:

01:39 Introducing the Guests

05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

07:34 AI in Product Marketing

18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing

23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move

23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing

24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market

26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence

27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager

32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate

38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing

46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find More

Show Notes:

Elliott LinkedIn

Aphrodite LinkedIn

Shoshana LinkedIn

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From Jack of All Trades to Niche Mastery in PMM, with Rob Kaminski

Thu, 05 Dec 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Episode Description:

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.

Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.

What you’ll learn:

How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.
Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).
The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.
Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.
A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.
And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s?

Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.

Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.

Show Notes

01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski

02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey

04:36 The Role of Product Marketers

06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing

07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy

10:41 Navigating Internal Influence

13:46 The Value of External Perspectives

17:58 Building a Fractional Service

19:57 Experimentation and Iteration

24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business

34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise

35:47 The Power of Niching Down

37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making

41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency

43:51 The Importance of Specialization

50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies

59:42 Closing Thoughts and Farewells

How to connect with Rob

Rob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile

FletchPMM website

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Become an Unignorable PMM by finding your superpower

Thu, 21 Nov 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone.

In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.

What’s Inside This Episode?

Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.
Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.
Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.
Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.
Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.
Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.

Who’s This Episode For?
Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who’re looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.

Key Takeaway:
Your superpower isn’t just a skill—it’s how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk

01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role

02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing

03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength

04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM

06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower

09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs

14:29 The Importance of Confidence

23:24 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Sponsor

Zach Messler with Clarityrules.com

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The True Role of PMMs with Rahim Kaba

Thu, 14 Nov 2024 13:45:00 +0000

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:

- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.

- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.

- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.

- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.

- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.

The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.

Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM’s impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research’ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.

Time Stamps

02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner

03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?

07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing

09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing

14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing

18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing

21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers

23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing

25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing

27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs

28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies

33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities

34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations

38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter

44:16 Using Gartner Insights

Where more to follow and connect with Rahim?

Rahim Kaba LinkedIn

Gartner Time to Value Podcast

Gartner for High Tech LinkedIn Page

Free Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM Skills

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Becoming the PMM 2.0: Advocacy, AI, and Product Strategy w/ Jess Petrella

Thu, 07 Nov 2024 14:00:00 +0000

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list.

Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.

We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps.

The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:

Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysis
Build advocacy skills to align with other teams
Strengthen connections with product teams
Collaborate on roadmaps to grow your role
Gain skills to impact product decisions
Simplify tasks with AI to increase output

Discover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI!

Timespan:

01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches

02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing

05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer

17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing

28:53 Conclusion and Farewell

Show Notes:

Jess LinkedIn

https://pmmops.com/

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The PMM Horror Stories LIVE for Halloween w/ Michele Nieberding

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +0000

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing.

We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.

And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween 💀 our FAVORITE HOLIDAY 🎃

Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, we’re talking about:

Combining new brands, products and segments
Freemium to Screemium
Failed launches and disastrous rebrands
Product enforcement gone wrong
A bunch of jokes and fun things

Start feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship

01:02 Meet the Hosts

01:28 Special Guest Introduction

03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction

06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare

14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits

19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare

21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products

22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes

24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco

25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster

30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle

37:29 Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Show Notes:

Michele’s LinkedIn

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Become Sales Best Friend with Win-Loss Analysis w/ Matthew Reeves

Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +0000

For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles.

Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.

But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped?

Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he’s showing us:

How to build rapport with sales teams
The complexities of positioning and messaging
Why you need both wins and losses for good research.
Why information overload kill sales.
The nuanced value of churn analysis.

Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can’t say we heard this one yet!

Timespan:

00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers

00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan

01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing

12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis

21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales

34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty

34:59 Understanding Product Assessment

35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions

37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing

37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis

38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing

40:34 Effective Sales Messaging

43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic

50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis

54:29 Bad Sales Experiences

01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

Show Notes:

Matthew’s LinkedIn

Goldpan website

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Why most startup positioning is mushy and what to do instead w/ April Dunford

Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstract marketing concept—it’s the foundation of your success. Whether you’re battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April’s got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here’s what you’re missing, by not listening:

Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.
The secret weapon for startups: April’s advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.
Why “actionable insights” aren’t really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.
CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April’s roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.
Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.

Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message

01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction

01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing

03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups

09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer

23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford

34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation

35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location

36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?

38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning

43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features

01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing

01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers

01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and More

Resources

April Dunford LinkedIn

April Dunford website

April Dunford’s Positioning Podcast

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PMMs and the Art of Juggling Everything: Balancing Work, Life, and Mental Health

Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You’re not alone.

In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.

Key takeaways include:

Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).
Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn’t be just a “corporate benefit.”
Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.
How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.

Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message

01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer

02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing

04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life

07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health

22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques

30:50 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Are Product Marketers the Future CMOs? w/ Jeff Chase

Thu, 03 Oct 2024 01:00:00 +0000

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren’t marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn’t stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he’s got the experience and insights to back it up.

Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?

Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don’t want to miss:

PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff’s surprising take on why product marketers aren’t really marketers.
The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.
The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.
Hiring Hacks: Jeff’s refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.
Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction and Host Intros

00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff

02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:35 The Future of Product Marketing

08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships

10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing

14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights

36:21 Dealing with Competitors

43:46 Conclusion and Sign-Off

Show Notes

Jeff Chase LinkedIn Profile

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How to get mad respect from your colleagues w/ Jarod Greene

Thu, 26 Sep 2024 13:00:00 +0000

In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.

When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you’re gonna get…

How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategy—and why it’s still the hardest job he’s ever done.
The “magician” role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).
Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.
Forget the committee—Jarod’s trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.
“I had no idea what PMM was 10 years ago” – how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.
Content without context = chaos. Jarod’s formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).
How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarod’s guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.

Time Stamps

00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene

01:00 Welcome to Season Three!

01:46 Introducing Jarod Greene

03:01 From Teaching to Marketing

05:15 The Role of Product Marketers

07:15 Becoming a CMO

18:03 Content with Context

22:19 Co-Creating with Sales

28:20 The Content Production Dilemma

29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing

30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research

31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making

39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies

43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit

51:21 Upcoming Projects and Events

Show Notes

Jarod Greene LinkedIn Profile

UNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales

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Finding your special sauce as a Fractional PMM w/ Megan Pratt

Thu, 19 Sep 2024 13:00:00 +0000

There are many different flavors of product marketers, whether you’re in-house or fractional like our host, you need to be aware of your special sauce 😉

The product marketing function is becoming more and more nuanced, so you need to know what you are good at and why these special skills matter with your expertise and work environment.

Megan Pratt went from senior PMM to director of PMM and was one step away from a VP position before she decided to go full-time as a fractional PMM.

Today, she’s coaching product marketers and helping companies as a fractional PMM. In this episode, we’re covering:

Misconceptions we have about going fractional
How to find your secret sauce as a PMM
How to educate prospects on product marketing
Learn how to say no without saying no
Building your pipeline as a consultant
Common gaps in product marketing

So join us, whether you’re a fractional, or in-house hire, and learn about a true expert on how to say no.

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Hosts' Banter

01:14 Introducing Special Guest Megan Pratt

06:09 The Value of Product Marketing

21:26 Personal Insights and Career Growth

26:25 Transition to Fractional Work

26:31 Challenges and Misconceptions of Going Fractional

30:48 Messaging Best Practices

31:13 Clarifying Roles and Responsibilities

32:23 Setting Boundaries in Freelancing

33:42 The Importance of Saying No

36:34 Building a Freelance Pipeline

50:56 Common Gaps in Product Marketing

59:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Product Marketing House

Megan’s LinkedIn

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Why being misunderstood in Product Marketing is actually your superpower

Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +0000

After 29 episodes, we’re finally closing down our season 2 and we’re taking this opportunity to circle back on why PMMs are misunderstood today in B2B SaaS.

Being misunderstood isn’t the problem, it’s the apathy from colleagues and management regarding our roles and responsibilities. But we should be proud of being misfits because it’s our uniqueness that can have a real impact on our jobs. All we need is more influence and less apathy.

In this episode, we’re going back on why we started the pod, how we’re researching our market, find new episode topics, and a special way on how you can be on the pod for upcoming seasons:

→ The key takeaways from this season that every PMM should know
→ Our thoughts on the future of Product Marketing and what’s on the horizon
→ What is the misfit madness and how can you be a special guest

Tune in for the last time of season 2, and enjoy a monthly break of not hearing us talk about product marketing 🙃

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Embracing the Misfit: Emma Stratton's guide to “smart” product marketing

Thu, 01 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timeline:

00:17 - Meet Emma Stratton: Life Coach and Messaging Expert

03:03 - Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

06:45 - Embracing the Misfit Identity in Product Marketing

12:15 - Handling Messaging Challenges and CEO Fears

21:05 - Transitioning to Entrepreneurship: When is the Right Time?

26:50 - Work-Life Harmony: Balancing Energy Drainers and Energizers

32:35 - Avoiding Company Politics and Aligning Teams

38:15 - Real-life Example: Messaging for an Australian Data Company

45:07 - Emma’s Upcoming Book: Make It Punchy

47:10 - Torture Chamber Game: Cringey Marketing Terms

55:00 - Final Thoughts and Staying Connected with Emma

Show Notes:

Emma's book: Make It Punchy: How to Write Simple Tech Messaging That Wins Hearts, Minds, and Markets (Pre-order now)

Punchy messaging newsletter

Follow Emma Stratton on LinkedIn

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Job Roulette: When PMMs have to “bite the bullet” while job hunting

Thu, 25 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:36 PMM jobs and LinkedIn trends.

03:00 Discussion about job application experiences and interview etiquette.

05:00 Gab shares a story about a go-to-market assignment.

08:00 Eric shares a story about interviewing with a competitor.

12:00 Zach shares a story about a poor recruiting experience.

16:00 Eric discusses a job that ended up being a bad fit.

19:00 Discussion on hiring practices and candidate experiences.

22:00 Importance of clear expectations and roles in hiring.

24:00 The value of specific hiring criteria and trust in the hiring process.

27:00 The benefits of private communities for job searching.

30:00 Gab's experience with irrelevant job postings.

33:00 Eric and Zach discuss the value of consulting and contracting as a career approach.

36:00 Final thoughts on hiring practices and candidate experience.

40:00 Additional anecdotes and reflections on job search experiences.

45:00 Tips for navigating the PMM job market.

50:00 Closing remarks and promotions for the newsletter and sponsors.

52:00 Outro and end of episode.

Show Notes:

⁠Inc Authority (LLC Formation)⁠

⁠Exit Five Community⁠

⁠Healthy Competition Community⁠

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Boldness—What that should look like in B2B PMM w/ Julien Sauvage

Thu, 18 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps

00:43 Introducing of Julien Sauvage

01:57 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

06:41 The Role of Boldness in Marketing

14:06 Event Branding Success at Clari

17:17 The Einstein Smart Speaker Flop

20:24 Reflecting on Dreamforce's Gimmicks

22:38 The Importance of Data in Product Marketing

24:43 Challenges and Realities of PMM

30:31 The Role of Copywriting in PMM

38:59 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Show Notes :

Julien’s LinkedIn

Content That Converts guide (by Devin Reed)

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Build an internal brand, using CI w/ Patrick Wall

Thu, 11 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps

1:00: Introduction of Pat Wall

5:00: Role of product marketers

7:00: CI and product marketing

8:30: Evolution of CI in Pat's career

10:00: Building a CI program

13:00: Effective sales enablement

15:00: Internal branding

17:00: "Torture Chamber" game

20:00: Engaging sales teams

24:00: Impactful enablement sessions

26:00: Leveraging top performers

28:00: Integrating CI and product marketing

30:00: Tips for building a CI program

32:00: Pat’s future projects

34:00: Thank you and closing remarks

Show Notes

Pat’s LinkedIn

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Segmentation: How to deal with "let's get everyone" as a target

Thu, 27 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:52 Discussing Target Audience

01:40 Horror Stories of Target Audience

05:14 Challenges in Messaging and Segmentation

14:23 Examples of Poor Market Segmentation

21:49 Effective Segmentation Strategies

32:15 The Power of Storytelling

34:35 Understanding Your Audience

38:19 Innovative Research Techniques

Show Notes:

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The one word most miss in “product marketing” w/ Becky Trevino

Thu, 20 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

0:00 The one word most miss in "product marketing" with Becky Trevino

00:16 Introduction and Hosts Banter

01:08 Introducing Special Guest Becky Trevino

01:55 Becky's Career Journey and Unique Perspective

02:49 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

05:05 Defining Product Market Fit

07:44 Product Marketing Superpowers

10:12 The Art of Storytelling in Product Marketing

15:31 Torture Chamber: Tough Choices in Product Strategy

19:08 Should Product Marketing Live Within Product?

22:38 Building Strong Relationships with Product Managers

23:09 Navigating New Challenges in a New Role

24:50 Leading Commercial Reviews and Gaining Respect

26:03 Balancing Technical and Marketing Perspectives

27:55 The Role of AI in Product Marketing

33:33 Balancing Present Offerings with Future Roadmaps

Show Notes:

Becky Trevino LinkedIn

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The most important role in B2B marketing w/ Dave Gerhardt

Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:05 Dave's Journey and Podcasting Tips

04:18 The Importance of Product Marketing

06:16 Early Stage Marketing Strategies

13:29 Building Trust and Influence in Startups

20:24 Positioning and Messaging Challenges

24:42 Addressing the Decline in Win Rate

25:24 Importance of Executing Positioning

25:57 Casual Conversation and Personal Interests

26:58 Messaging Torture Chamber

27:31 Marketing Strategies: Brand vs. Content

29:14 Event Marketing Insights

30:59 Simplifying B2B Marketing

34:38 The Role of Podcasts in B2B Marketing

41:23 Conclusion and Upcoming Events

Show Notes:

The Exit Five Podcast

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The dark side of product marketing: buyer and sales enablement w/ Anna Borbotko

Thu, 06 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps

00:20 Guest Introduction: Anna Borbotko

06:17 TomTom's Evolution and Market Strategy

10:25 Challenges and Strategies in Enterprise Product Marketing

12:48 Cold Outreach Pilot Program

16:27 Enterprise vs. Startup Dynamics

18:30 The Evolution of Software Buying

19:13 Challenges in the Automotive Industry

19:32 Simplifying the Buying Process

20:47 Sales and Buyer Enablement

23:25 Marketing's Role in Buyer Enablement

26:15 The Importance of Effective Collateral

29:44 The Torture Chamber

33:17 Anna's Initiatives and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Anna’s LinkedIn

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PMM training: how to stay relevant in product marketing

Thu, 30 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions

01:18 The Importance of Training in Product Marketing

01:54 Identifying Unique Superpowers

07:18 The Value of Formal Education and Certifications

16:42 Applying Knowledge in Real-World Scenarios

19:41 Leveraging Data Analytics in Product Marketing

26:13 Continuous Learning and Networking

33:01 Conclusion and Newsletter Promotion

Show Notes:

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What B2B product marketers can learn from B2C w/ Carlota Güell

Thu, 23 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction and Host Intros

01:07 Meet Our Guest: Carlota Guell

03:28 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

08:18 B2B vs B2C Marketing Insights

20:36 The Emotional Buying Pyramid

24:22 Fun Lightning Round with Carlota

26:43 Closing Remarks and Where to Find Carlota

Show Notes

Product Marketing Stories podcast

Carlota Guell's LinkedIn profile

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The unconventional highway to product marketing w/ Harvey Lee

Thu, 16 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:00 Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling the World of Product Marketing

00:16 Special Guest Harvey Lee: From Business to Rockstar

01:45 The Great Debate: Are Marketers Really Marketers?

05:14 A Dive into Marketing History with the McElroy Memo

12:01 The Evolution of Product Marketing in the Digital Age

18:43 Navigating the Pathways to Becoming a Full Stack Marketer

21:45 The Journey from Sales, CS, to Product Marketing: A Comparative Analysis

26:42 Debunking Marketing Myths: Beyond 'Build It and They Will Come'

27:58 The Importance of Marketing Training and Accessibility

28:51 Harvey's Journey: Leaving PMA and Embracing Advisory Roles

34:16 The Power of Fit in Hiring and Career Growth

38:29 Mastering Product Marketing: Skills, Training, and Community

41:13 Harvey Lee's Insights: Full Stack Marketing and Beyond

44:16 Connecting with Harvey Lee: Books, Awards, and More

Show Notes:

⁠ Below the Waterline Newsletter⁠

⁠Get his book Backstage Pass⁠

⁠Harvey's Website⁠

⁠Harvey's LinkedIn ⁠

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Standing tall in a "layoff-heavy" PMM job market w/ Yi Lin Pei

Thu, 09 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Show Notes

0:00 Standing tall in a "layoff-heavy" PMM job market w/ Yi Lin Pei

00:00 Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling Product Marketing Mysteries

00:17 Introducing Yi Lin Pei: From Visual Artist to Product Marketing Pro

03:03 The Unique Role of Product Marketers: Strategists, Not Just Marketers

06:07 Mastering Product Marketing: Strategies for Success and Growth

10:15 The Torture Chamber Game: Tough Choices for a Product Marketer

21:05 Navigating Layoffs: Yi Lin's Perspective and Support for PMMs

21:39 Navigating the Challenging Job Market: Strategies and Insights

22:51 Differentiation in Job Applications: Standing Out in a Competitive Market

23:37 Career Switching Advice: Embracing Stepping Stone Roles

24:45 Personal Success Stories: Leveraging Unique Backgrounds for Career Advancement

27:15 The Importance of Differentiation Throughout the Hiring Process

32:03 Advocacy and Representation: Addressing Underrepresentation in Tech

38:35 Leadership and Advocacy: Supporting Underrepresented Groups in the Workplace

44:07 Yi Lin's PMM Superpower and Final Thoughts

Resources:

Courageous Careers Newsletter⁠

⁠Positioning for Growth podcast⁠

⁠Yi Lin Pei LinkedIn

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Why we faked the pod’s “end of life” last month? Emotional engagement.

Thu, 02 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:00 Welcome to Season 2: The Unforgettable Comeback

00:55 The Big Reveal: Why We Faked Our Podcast's Death

02:59 Emotional Engagement and Its Impact

05:22 The Aftermath: Listener Reactions and Personal Reflections

12:53 Introducing the Newsletter: A New Way to Engage

15:52 The Misfit Community: Engaging with Our Audience

17:17 Kicking Off with Casual Banter

17:48 Deep Dive into Emotional Engagement

20:02 Exploring Product Marketing Challenges

24:58 Personal Growth and Professional Evolution

27:05 Embracing the Consulting Journey

33:06 Wrapping Up and Looking Forward

Show notes:

⁠We’re Not Marketers Website⁠

⁠Dying 4 Influence Newsletter⁠

⁠Ruben Studdard’s Sorry 2004⁠

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How we've reached 2500 podcast downloads in 4 months with a $300 budget

Thu, 28 Mar 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:45 WNM origin story

05:40 How we came up with the name

14:00 The skeleton branding

26:09 Consistency and humor in our marketing

31:28 Consistency in podcasting

34:43 Our differentiation and favorite guests

48:10 Survey results with Adam McQueen from Klue

01:03:14 Final verdict and end of the podcast?

Show Notes:

The original We’re Not Marketers post

Adam McQueen LinkedIn

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Don’t review messaging internally, message test instead w/ Peep Laja

Thu, 14 Mar 2024 13:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:39 The role of product marketing in the B2B landscape

03:14 Why website ownership and conversion rates matter for PMMs

04:42 Challenges and strategies to be aware when managing website messaging

06:52 The evolution and future of message testing

07:22 CEO's Role as a product Marketer in Startups

09:53 Why messaging is underestimated in B2B

13:05 Message testing and market trends

16:24 Advices for solo PMM on messaging

19:38 How to improve your message clarity and relevance

20:56 How to leverage customer feedback with your messaging

24:29 How Peep is building influence and engaging on LinkedIn

26:43 What makes Spryng different from other B2B events

29:42 The Messaging Torture Chamber

34:19 Where to find Peep and learn more from him

Show Notes:

Wynter

Hemingway App

Sales Pitch by April Dunford

B2B Messaging course

Spryng event

Peep LinkedIn

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How PMMs can tie revenue with competitive intelligence w/ Clara Smyth

Thu, 07 Mar 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

02:47 Clara's Journey into Competitive Intelligence

03:45 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

05:10 The Role of Competitive Intelligence in Revenue Generation

08:01 The Importance of Being Selfless in Product Marketing

10:33 Ideal Structure for Competitive Intelligence

13:02 Misconceptions about Competitive Intelligence

16:22 The Power of Competitive Intelligence Newsletters

19:21 Building a Content Creation Team

21:31 Investing in Competitive Intelligence

25:23 The Evolution of Competitive Intelligence

28:20 Handling Internal Requests and Prioritizing Competitors

34:00 Special Projects and Where to Find Clara

Show Notes:

Clara LinkedIn

Back Office to Boardroom Spotify

Back Office to Boardroom Apple Podcasts

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Let’s get clear about product messaging w/ Zach Messler

Thu, 29 Feb 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:30 Zach Messler's Background and Journey

03:20 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

09:26 Zach's Philosophy and Approach to Marketing

18:27 The Importance of Clarity in Messaging

20:11 The Hierarchy of Clarity

24:56 The Power of Context in Messaging

30:31 The Importance of Context in Problem-Solution Approach

31:44 The Role of Product Marketers and Its Challenges

32:28 Strategies to Enhance Product Marketing Role

33:12 The Power of Negotiation in Product Marketing

37:31 The Impact of Trade Shows in Product Marketing

39:52 The Art of Messaging in Product Marketing

48:23 The Essence of Product Messaging

Show notes:

Zach LinkedIn

Never split the difference by Christopher Voss

Clarity Rules

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How to use data to tell a better story in B2B

Thu, 22 Feb 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:24 The Importance of Data in Marketing

05:12 Effective Storytelling with Data

07:20 The Power of Positioning and Market Insight

11:57 The Balance Between Creativity and Metrics

16:42 The Challenges of Data Analytics in Product Marketing

21:17 Measuring Podcasts for Thought Leadership

24:00 The Problem of Instant Gratification

28:20 The Importance of Balance in Growth

31:26 The Role of Data in Guiding Initiatives

33:21 The Power of Gut Feeling and Hard Work

Show Notes:

April Dunford Positioning Podcast

FletchPMM Notion Cheatsheet

Devin Reed LinkedIn

ProductivePMM Notion Hub

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Securing quick wins by building internal relationships w/ Collin Mayjack

Thu, 15 Feb 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:37: Transitioning from non-profit to tech

2:02: Collin's background as a preacher up to product marketing

4:47: Are product marketers actually marketers?

7:32: Collin's approach as a founding PMM

09:32: Defining product marketing in a new role

11:16: The importance of building relationships

12:29: Balancing short-term and long-term goals

14:30: Leadership in product marketing

16:25: The importance of building credibility

18:12: Setting boundaries and building respect

21:11: The rule of reciprocity in product marketing

23:51: Sharing and building credibility

27:38: Lightning round

Show Notes:

Collin LinkedIn

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How PMMs can influence GTM without being left out w/ Madison Leonard

Thu, 08 Feb 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:02: Madison's journey to product marketing

02:11: Transitioning from B2C to B2B

02:58: Madison's current role and GTM strategy passion

05:37: Are product marketers actually marketers?

07:56: The disconnect between marketing and sales

12:11: The role of product marketing in Go-to-market

18:07: Building trust and influencing change in organizations

22:47: The shift from B2B to PLG

32:39: Where to find Madison and learn more about her work

Show Notes:

Madison LinkedIn

SaaS Secrets newsletter

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How PMMs can "bounce-back" from layoffs

Thu, 01 Feb 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

01:17: Eric's layoff experience

04:12: Zach's layoff experience

10:24: The state of layoffs and product marketing in the US

12:34: Taking the solopreneur road after being laid off

14:00: The stress of the first 90 days as a PMM

15:53: Specialist vs. generalist PMM

18:27: How to position yourself as a PMM and be memorable

22:31: How can you make your next job search a success

Show Notes:

Emma Stratton LinkedIn

Product Marketing Alliance Salary Report

Personal Positioning from Tamara Grominsky

Practical Positioning Guide from Jess Petrella

TealHQ.com - CRM for job search

Stillhiring.today - Job board

Lavender AI - How to write great email to hiring managers

Aligned - Digital Salesroom to showcase your work

Healthy Competition - CI Community

PMMCamp - Product Marketing Community

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How competitive intel makes B2B product marketing easier w/ Andy McCotter-Bicknell

Thu, 25 Jan 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

04:14: Are product marketers actually marketers?

08:15: What is easier: being a generalist PMM or a specialist like in CI?

12:05: Is it easier being in competitive intelligence than product marketing?

15:03: Does category creation matter in competitive intelligence?

19:30: Biggest mistakes you can make on competitive intel

24:20: How to command respect as a PMM

28:12: How to break into CI as a PMM

38:35: Where to find and learn more about Andy

Show Notes:

Andy LinkedIn

Healthy Competition LinkedIn

Healthy Competition

Ready for launch {March Cohort}

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Why great PMMs would be terrible CMOs w/ Tamara Grominsky

Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:54: Are product marketers actually marketers?

02:26: PMM would be terrible CMOs

03:36: The ideal reporting structure for product marketers

05:21: How to create good product marketing fundamentals

09:00: Balancing strategy and execution

15:44: How much important is copywriting for PMMs?

18:53: Defining product marketing within your organization

23:04: Category creation and Tamara’s take

24:41: Evaluating a product marketing role

Show Notes:

PMMCamp

Ready for launch {March Cohort}:

Tamara's LinkedIn

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Driving Revenue: Why PMMs should move away from leads

Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Timestamps:

00:55 - How PMMs should drive revenue

05:46 - The focus on leads vs. the focus on revenue

08:18 - How to make sure PMMs drive revenue

10:45 - Why stakeholders don't understand the impact of messaging

16:16 - Balancing strategic projects with tactics as a PMM

22:46 - How to manage ongoing requests

27:38 - How to enforce a research phase on strategic projects

31:50 - How to help change priorities internally

35:46 - What to do if you're doing more lead gen than revenue capture?

Show notes:

Olivine and Winter - B2B Messaging Course

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Why most startup homepages in B2B SaaS suck w/ Anthony Pierri

Thu, 04 Jan 2024 14:00:00 +0000

Anthony LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/

FletchPMM Website: https://www.fletchpmm.com/

Fletch Notion Database: https://buy.stripe.com/fZeeYe1tBc2C37y3ct

Good Hangs Spotify

Timestamps

01:41 - How Anthony predict if a client project will go well

02:21 - Why referrals don't work for FletchPMM

03:41 - Anthony LinkedIn GTM strategy and how they attract clients

06:50 - Are product marketers, actually marketers?

09:33 - VCs without marketing background are shaping bad homepage messaging

18:35 - How FletchPMM works with in-house marketing teams

21:16 - Why is there so much bad messaging in B2B marketing

24:30 - The Beachhead Approach for your homepage

28:15 - How to find and connect with Anthony

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How to be the founding PMM your B2B startup respects w/ Jason Oakley

Thu, 14 Dec 2023 14:00:00 +0000

Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/

PMM Files Website: https://pmmfiles.com/

The Productive PMM Website: https://productivepmm.com/

Ready for Launch Course: https://maven.com/course-crew/readyforlaunch

Timestamps:

02:08 Are PMMs actually marketers?

03:43 The biggest challenge of founding PMMs at early-stage startups

05:38 How to prioritize to be a more productive PMM

15:34 Why Jason started ProductivePMM

18:56 Important skills of founding PMMs

23:47 The fundamentals of product marketing and how they back up strategy and execution

26:46 Most common pitfalls for product launches

32:14 Where to find Jason and to get more information

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Sales Enablement: What sellers want from product marketers

Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:00:00 +0000

Most PMMs feel sellers don’t do what they tell ’em. Ears fume after listening to a random customer call recording because a sales rep decided not to stay on message. Sellers feel no different about PMMs.

90% of sales and marketing professionals point to several disconnects across strategy, process, content, and culture. (LinkedIn, 2020). It’s astounding! How can two professions, most focused on the customer persona, stand at odds like Will Ferrell & John C. Reilly in 2008’s Stepbrothers?

in this next episode, our co-hosts speak on the most common challenges between marketing and sales teams. How to navigate those dynamics to be a better friend to sellers that PMs can’t get from any product roadmap. And, the co-hosts share tips you can use to foster instant karma points with your selling partners.

Time Stamps:

00:16 Introduction and Discussion on Marketing and Sales Silos

01:11 The Challenges of Being a Solo Marketer in a Startup

01:31 The Misunderstanding of Product Marketing’s Role

02:45 Sales Leaders’ Perspective on Marketing and Sales Goals

04:19 Strategies to Elevate Authority with Sales

05:02 The Importance of Crafting Effective Messaging

06:59 The Role of Product Marketing in Assisting Sales

10:50 The Value of Repetition and Persistence in Marketing

11:35 The Struggles and Solutions in Sales Enablement

13:50 Conclusion: Breaking Down Silos and Building Team Comradery

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How to Create Value as a PMM

Tue, 28 Nov 2023 14:00:00 +0000

This podcast episode centers around the challenges faced by product marketing managers in conducting their jobs and ensuring their roles are correctly understood in their respective organizations.

Our three co-hosts share personal experiences and frustrations, highlighting issues such as being undervalued in strategic processes, difficulty in role definition, job insecurity, and the need for having a centralized decision-maker in positioning and messaging.

They discuss the growing specializations in product marketing and highlight the urgency for product marketers to align their interests and job expectations with these evolving roles. Our co-hosts also highlight the upcoming ‘product marketing superstar’ guests who’ll be in later episodes to share their experience and expertise in being rockstar PMMs.

Sections:

0:00 How to fortify the value as a PMM in your org when you’re at your wits end.

00:28 Why prior experience matters to how you view product marketing

01:33 Why we wanted to create this podcast, in the first place.

03:15 Learning from PMMs, a few steps ahead of you.

05:05 Future of PMM and sense of belonging in your career today

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Trailer - Season 1

Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:19:37 +0000

Launch trailer for the first episode of We're Not Marketers

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